Discussion "On the rainy river"
http://www.curriculumcompanion.org/public/lite/mcdougalLittell/ml10/pdf/ml10_u4p2_rainy.pdf
Adrienne Rich, "Diving Into the Wreck"
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15228
We are, I am, you are
by cowardice or courage
the one who find our way
back to this scene
carrying a knife, a camera
a book of myths
in which
our names do not appear.
The id, the ego, the super ego: Freud's theory
http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/a/personalityelem.htm
A thought about symbolism: Elroy's role (from Shmoop)
On the Rainy River
So, O'Brien didn't really work in a meatpacking plant the summer before he went to Vietnam, and he didn't go up to the Canadian border to try to get away from the war and then chicken out and return home. It's a symbol for his mental state at the time. He can't get the nightmarish idea of slaughter out of his head – it's all he can think about – and so he thinks about running away. He's on the edge. Eventually, though, he backs off the edge. He doesn't go to Canada.Elroy Berdahl is an important symbol in all of this, as O'Brien explicitly states:
He was the true audience. He was a witness, like God, or like the gods, who look on in absolute silence as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make them. (On the Rainy River.74)
If Berdahl is God (or your deity of choice – atheists, feel free to use the universe as a stand-in), then God is ambivalent here. He doesn't push Tim to make one choice or another, and he doesn't judge Tim either way. He's simply there, watching, and his presence is felt.
In small groups, please discuss "On a Rainy River":
(1) How do the opening sentences prepare you for the story: "This is one story I've never told before. Not to anyone"? What effect do they have on you, as a reader?
(2) Why does O'Brien relate his experience as a pig declotter? How does this information contribute to the story? Why go into such specific detail?
(3) What is Elroy Berdahl's role in this story? Would this be a better or worse story if young Tim O'Brien simply headed off to Canada by himself, without meeting another person?
(4) At the story's close, O'Brien almost jumps ship to Canada, but doesn't: "I did try. It just wasn't possible" (61). What has O'Brien learned about himself, and how does he return home as a changed person?
(5) Why, ultimately, does he go to war? Are there other reasons for going he doesn't list?
Questions for discussion:
Why is the first story told in the third person? What effect does it have on you as a reader to then switch to the first person in “Love”? O’Brien also uses the second person in this collection. For example, in “On the Rainy River,” the narrator, trying to decide whether to accept the draft or become a draft dodger, asks: “What would you do?” (page 56). Why does the author use these different perspectives?
Who is Elroy Bendahl, and why is he “the hero of [the narrator’s] life” (page 48)?
At the end of "On the Rainy River," the narrator makes a kind of confession: "The day was cloudy. I passed through towns with familiar names, through the pine forests and down to the prairie, and then to Vietnam, where I was a soldier, and then home again. I survived, but it's not a happy ending. I was a coward. I went to the war" (61). What does this mean?
Here is the website for The Big Read with lots of interesting information and a 28 minute radio interview with Tim O'Brien:
www.neabigread.org/books/thethingstheycarried/radioshow.php
HMWK: For tomorrow, "The Dentist" and Sweetheart of Song Tra Bong"
Caleb/Darren
ReplyDeleteThe first story is written in third person because O'Brien wants to give you the entire perspective and feel of the soldiers at first. Also, it could be used as an excuse to switch around with time and place throughout the entirety of the novel. Then when it switches to first person in the next story and makes it more personal, it effectively makes the story seem to be truer and much more direct, seeming as how it comes from one single person's direct experiences and what he heard from others. However, this does blur the line between reality and the untrue, making it so we rely on what the narrator's observations are and making it hard to distinguish if every person's stories are actually true or not. All of these different perspectives are used because it's supposed to vary with how much we are thrust into the war. For example, O'Brien uses the switching around to 2nd person to make us feel inside the war story and have us think about how we would react when thrust into these "real" situations of war. But when he uses 3rd person, he intends to document what happened in the war as a whole, not drawing us into the war too much. When 1st person is used, it makes the line between the truth and the lie blurred and makes some seem unbelievable, furthering his idea that true war stories would be believed by war veterans only, not normal civilians.
!) The opening sentence gives the reader the sense that this story is more personal, and it also lets the reader know that this story is more significant to the author. This made us feel more connected to the story and the author.
ReplyDelete2) It's a symbol of his thoughts on war- having to work in a slaughter house, and being surrounded by death and smelling like blood, are all linked to his idea of being in a war.
-Gretta and Piper
By telling the story in third person it gives the reader an overall view of what was going on in Vietnam. By doing this, writing in this form it set the tone for the rest of the book and gave us a picture of the settings or surroundings. When he switched to the first person in "Love", it gives the reader a chance to actually get insight to what a solider was thinking, it allowed us to get to know them as a character. By switching perspectives it gives his audience a chance to fully understand every event and the intensity of it, allowing them to get a clear picture of all sides.
ReplyDeleteThe story is first told in third person to help convey the experience on different levels and gives you a more objective point of view. It distances the narrator from the narrative, before it switches back to first and provides a more personal view into the work of fiction. Through the different point of views, it enables the reader to not be able to predict whats going to happen and not always believe what is written-provides a more interactive experience, especially on page 56 when he addresses the audience and switches the second person.O'Brian is trying to make the reader experience what the narrator experienced.
ReplyDeleteOona and Alina
Maya&Dayanara
ReplyDelete1. The opening sentence draws you in as a reader. It makes you want to continue reading to find out what he is going to tell, and why he has not told anyone else.
2. This is a symbol for how he feels about the war. He describes the war as being in a slaughter house, constantly engulfed by death.
The story starts in third person so that the reader isn't focused on the narrator but more of the whole setting. The switch to first person begins to focus on the narrator, and the story becomes more personal. O'Brien uses second person to connect the readers with the emotions of the narrator. This allows the reader to become more involved in the situations that occur within the story. Elroy Bandahl is very important to the narrator because he assisted him in making his decision, without saying anything about it. O'Brien staying at Elroy's lodge gave him the time he needed for thinking and having the time to make a decision.
ReplyDeletePatrick and Otis
Ultimately he goes to war because he's embarrassed. He's embarrassed to stay and embarrassed to go. No matter which way he goes he's going to be seen as scared and as a wimp. It's like he had no choice it really seems in these situations your bodies almost take over and you just go into auto pilot. Also the first few sentences are very much used to make a reader feel special, like they're about to hear a secret that only they're going to be trusted with. They make a reader feel much more involved and therefore gives a story a deeper meaning.
ReplyDeleteThe narrator used third person to make you think this story follows a sort of standard outline, and then he uses first person to get more personal, and uses second person to jump out at the reader and get you thinking about what you would do in that situation.
ReplyDeleteElroy provided shelter, and gave him time to think. He was very passive, like a god, just observing silently as people make choices.
He means that he wasn't brave to go to war. He was a coward to do it. He went to war because he was expected to. He was to afraid to follow his beliefs and run.
Tim, Dominic, and Kayla
Michaela and Sophie:
ReplyDeleteIt makes the reader feel connected to the narrator, like they have a bond. Then when the pig factory story is told the reader feels pity for the narrator and may begin to understand what kind of person he is. Elroy serves to turn the young man back. If he wasn't there the rest of the book wouldn't have happened. He also is there to teach TIm O'Brien about himself and his personal boundaries. Tim sees that if he goes to Canada he will miss out on seeing his parents get older as well as miss out on getting married and having children in AMerica. he sees his future flash before him and he knows he won't be able to fulfill that if he runs away.
Will & Liam
ReplyDeleteBy switching the narrative from third to first person, O'Brien allows his story to take on a more personal tone. This gives us more of a connection to the character, Tim O'Brien and makes the story more believable. By referring to the character's experience as a pig declotter, O'Brien is making the connection between a slaughter house and war, which is industrialized slaughter. The character Elroy Berdahl represents Tim's free will. He forces Tim O'Brien to make a choice without bringing up the issue at hand.
The frist couple sentences let you know right of the bat that this is going to be a very intese personal story, that it's almost like a secret. Of course we'll never know how personal this story actually is because we can't really trust anything Tim O'Brien puts in this book. We'll never know if he actually knew a man named Elroy Berdahl and spent a few days living with him on the Rainy River. It might have been him, it might have been someone he knew, it might have been some random experience that he made up out of the blue. It's interesting to hear him talk about his life before he got drafted, about his job, about all the people he knew who would judge him if he ran off. He can't stand the idea of anyone thinking of him poorly, "imagine people sitting around a table down at the Old Gobbler Cafe on Main Street, coffee cups poised, the conversation slowly zeroing in on the young O'Brien kid, how the damned sissy had taken off for Canada," (45). He went to war because of the embarrassment, not because he wanted to be a hero, because he liked uniforms and violence. He calls himself a coward, but that might not be just referring to him going to war, it might be talking about the whole premise of the Vietnam war itself. Soldiers with lots of protective equipment going into civilian territory, not necessarily fighting civillians, but being the cowards behind the cammo. It might not even be this war specifically, it might be just war in general, the idea of people in body armor with metal barricades against those with nothing more that skin and rudimentary weapons and housing. He might be hitting on something even deeper than going to canada in this story, it might even be attacking the idea of war itself.
ReplyDeleteThe opening lines of, "On the Rainy River" are very important for setting the tone of the chapter. They are the words of a confessor. They are the words of person who is trying to communicate to their confidant the gravity of this confession, the effort that they are putting into trying to pull these words from the pit of their stomach. Tim O'Brien has carefully chosen the first words of this chapter because these words are known to so many people. “...I've never told before. Not to anyone.” Everyone has felt that nagging itch of secrecy before. This helps the piece become relatable to readers. It also helps to hook readers into the chapter. Everyone wants to know secrets. That's the whole beauty of them. That's why they are so coveted; everyone wants mystery to their lives. By making the opening for this chapter like a crooked finger to say, Come here and a finger to the lips as if to say, But stay quiet. The reader wants to get close and be that one person who the author can confide in. It also sets the tone of the chapter as one of guilt, secrets, and reflection.
ReplyDeleteI find the Rainy River to be the best of the stories so far! This story in particular has a dark mood that speaks to me, which I find very intresting that the other stories are set in the heart of the war does not even come close to the mood of the Rainy River. ELroy's signifigance is that he symbolizes the idea of something other worldly watching us, but offering no help or hints just free will and options. Tim O'Brien writes " ...He didnt speak. He was simply there,like the river, and the late-summer sun...his mute watchfullness made ir real..." He writes this to describe Elroy's presence and symbolic meaning.
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