Wednesday, January 30, 2013
Class Debate
Agenda:
I hope you are all having a lovely Wednesday!
-The class will be split into two groups, males versus females.
-The debate will focus on how you feel your sex has been oppressed or discriminated against throughout history ( and currently if it is relevant). Historically, think of things that you know were happening during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Homework:
-What was your overall reaction to the debate? Were there topics or arguments suggested by the opposing team that surprised you? Why or why not?
-Secondly, what are some predictions you have about this unit? How do you think the debate fits into the overall topics we will be discussing about male authors and their view of females as well as female authors and their view of males during the late 19th and early 20th centuries?
-I thought the debate was very interesting, and fun to participate in. If you ask almost anyone, male or female, they would say that women have been oppressed much more than men. So, it was interesting to see what the boys came up with to defend their side, being the devils advocate, I guess. The girls side argued against their point about custody, but in fact that is one way that men have been oppressed, and until now I had not thought about that. The debate gave me some thinking to do.
ReplyDelete-It is usually easy for girls to talk about women and the way they are perceived, or guys to talk about how men are perceived. But it is somewhat harder to take a step back and look at how the sexes think of each other, or how i think of boys. When an author writes about the opposite sex, it can go wrong and they may resort to stereotypes. It can make people upset. Writers have a lot of power in influencing their readers. I think this unit will be interesting, and I will hope to learn new things or start thinking about other ways of looking at the way sexes view the other sexes.
The debate was entertaining. Arguing for my sex was very challenging, but also fun because of what I learned (Like how car insurance is more expensive for men). I wasn't personally invested in many of my arguments/claims so I did make a few slip-ups (I instantly regretted the nurse argument as soon as I mentioned it), but fortunately I had a good team to help back me up.
ReplyDeleteI don't prefer emotionally charged debates, but seeing how upset some people got on both sides did leave quite the impression on me. It felt refreshing to touch on a topic people actually cared about in a class. I would certainly like to do something like this again.
This unit is probably going to be about the changing gender roles in society and conflict between the sexes about their role in society.
Though, I agree that a discussion would probably be better for an open ended question such as this one. If we ever do have another debate, I would like to have a solid understanding of what I'm arguing for and what side I'm on. I didn't mind fighting an uphill battle, but during the debate I was thinking less about the implications of the topic and more about how I could win, and this shouldn't have been the point of the exercise.
DeleteI think that it will be refreshing to finally read books by female authors in an English class, since we haven't read a novel by a woman in at least a year and a half. Since English classes focus on literature written during a time period where women were not as free to express themselves as men, we as students are subconsciously subjected to literary misogyny. We are repeatedly given the novels of men and told that they are the cornerstone of literature, when really they only represent half of the intellectual mind trust of history. It's pathetic that I can not think of the last time I was exposed to a woman author in English class.
ReplyDeleteI thought the debate we had in class was interesting. It was nice to be able to hear the girls in our class talk about their feelings about how women have been treated throughout history, as well as the obstacles we still have to overcome. It sparked a sense of comradery that I rarely experience as the result of school. However, it was difficult for me to separate what could be perceived as blatant misogyny from an attempt to play the devil's advocate for a school assignment. The boys were set up to fail and to offend every female person in the room, which wasn't fair to any of us.
preach it girl!
DeleteBrace yourselves, this might get a little long winded and extremely annoying to read.
ReplyDelete1. I thought the debate was pretty awful. I thought both groups had many faults in their arguments, and I was made to take a stand on the side I don't agree with. I don't enjoy refuting things that I believe in to an incredible extent, which I had to do today. But one of my main issues with the debate was the topic. We were supposed to be debating how our group has been historically oppressed, but it quickly became a pissing contest between the two genders. It started out fine, but then we started going at it to discredit the other group's views, and to say that they were wrong. It essentially became a war over who was more oppressed, and why the other group was just bullshitting. Looking back, I don't feel it should have gone that way. One of my key beliefs is that every person has problems. It doesn't matter if you're rich, white, male, physically attractive, popular, or whatever. Any group of people, regardless of what group they are a part of, has an issue. Yelling at others about how their issues are more important than someone else's problems doesn't get humanity anywhere. And I feel that's what happened today. We got nowhere. We went to great lengths to disprove the points of the other group, and in doing so we basically stated that, "No, that's not a real problem and it isn't important, our problems are the only ones that matter." That line of thinking isn't getting us anywhere. People have problems, and the only way to fix those problems are to fix society itself. You can't fix society if everyone is trying to point out that their problems are more important than those of others. You need unity, not a bunch of people arguing constantly.
2. This topic is going to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST. FEMINISM. FINALLY. I don't feel the febate is going to fit in very well. Many of the points were from relatively recent times, and they're based off of a series of changing beliefs over a long period of time, thoughts that weren't generally created in the 19th/early 20th century. But still. This is gonna be great.
I originally wrote a much longer argument and ranted, but IT WAS TOO LONG FOR THE COMMENT GEIFAJWISUGRA
Yes, exactly! It was like "I'm more oppressed, no I'M more oppressed, no I'M DEFINITELY more oppressed than you!". Like, let's just throw one big oppression party and we can all get together and eat one big fat oppression cake.
DeleteAfter watching two debates, in two different classes, it was interesting to see the similar approaches presented by both the boys and the girls. Both argued some valid points, others invalid and some just completely out of line. Overall I'm going to have to agree with Hannah's last statement, that the boys were set up to fail as well as offend practically every woman in the room. I don't think this was fair, and I would have liked to see a debate in which the men had to argue for female oppression, and the women argue for male oppression. I think it would have mixed it up a bit, and it would have been more helpful for each of the opposing sides. I also think this debate created an unhealthy friction between the boys and the girls, and ultimately didn't help or solve anything, it created a venomous atmosphere in which the boys felt that they had to argue points that were out of character, which then lead to some male entitlement issues, which further lead to more heated arguments...and it was just upsetting (at least for me). I think this exercise would have benefited from role reversal, it would have been FAR more educational and helpful, and I personally don't think it would have created as much of a chasm between the boys and the girls. I can't tell if I got off topic or not...anyway, this discussion will definitely serve as a jumping off point for the further discussions we will have, as we plummet into the good ol' world of lady literature WOO HOOOO!!!
ReplyDeleteI second your argument. All that really resulted was a stirring of bad blood. I mean it had good intentions and some legit stuff was said, at least when us girls were talking to each other, but it got kinda nasty. I LOVE the role reversal thang. That would make quite a difference O.o
Deleteyes i love doing role reversal debates, i hope we can do that!
DeleteI thoroughly enjoyed the debate today. While I agree that the debate became tangential and more of a gender pride argument, debating is something I love to do. I can't say that either side came out of it with anything more than resentment for what was said since an argument where both sides have truth to them can become very frustrating. Given very little time to deliberate on the subject and what each respective argument would be, people who may have had a valid point to make ended up speaking out of emotion more than actually backing up a valid argument. I like Piper's idea of a role reversal argument because it would take more thought for each side and be a better mental exercise.
ReplyDeleteCaleb, I'm going to have to disagree with your statement about making a stand you don't agree with. The debate was intended and did start off as simply a discussion on how each sex has been discriminated against throughout history. You were not required to refute anything the girls side said. The debate only turned into an argument and "pissing" contest. Feminist or egalitarian, talking about discrimination against men does not go against your beliefs.
I apologize for any remarks I made today that may have been misconstrued as sexist in nature. My social views tend to be egalitarian but I love arguing and heated debates.
I'm totally about to do some hard core rambling. I apologize in advance.
ReplyDeleteAlthough our class's debate ended up in a bit of a screaming match, it was really exciting that we were able to have such a heated (but still totally valid and intelligent) debate with our fellow classmates in an educational context. It felt good to feed off each other's responses and make legitimate points, and I agree with Hannah that the comradery aspect was definitely there. I honestly really like being at SOTA, call me crazy, and to feel that connection with my peers is awesome. We should have more of these! HOWEVER I did feel bad for the guys. Sure, the reverse discrimination and custody arguments are fair, but the guys really had such little ammo that they were bound to be totally offensive before they even formed a point. It was a good challenge, but it doesn't exactly provide for a healthy debate.
I am looking forward to read some female authors; I know that I personally have read very few books with female authors, or at least have not dissected and analyzed very many as in-depth-ly as we do in an AP setting. I tried to think back to the last one I had read, to try to compare male and female authors, but I failed miserably. I know we've discussed and analyzed a book or two by a female in my past 2 years of english at SOTA, but never have I analyzed one with the point of view that it is coming from the mind of a woman compared to a man.
The apparent gap is disappointing. The fact alone that in order to integrate female authors into the curriculum, we have to make a unit out of it, means that there is something we're missing. Why aren't these books considered for their quality rather than the sex of their author? They should be already on out reading lists to begin with. It's almost like schools forget about them and feel bad so they make sure to throw a "feminism unit" in there.
As frustrating and as difficult as class was today, I felt like I cared more or took away from it more than almost any other English class we had this year. It was so strange to actually continue to discuss and share how I felt with other people while leaving class or getting on the bus and to actually get a chance to express how we deeply feel about the gender and societal problems of today. Although I felt it was a very successful class, I still feel we could have maybe organized it, or approached it in a better way. I feel like if the period was set up much more like a discussion than a debate, we would have been able to elaborate on our points or have more freedom to say how we really felt. I don't think a single person on the boys side was trying to argue that men have been more marginalized or have had more disadvantages than women, and quite frankly I don't think anyone would have wanted to argue that way. I feel like the boys side was merely trying to state several examples of ways that they felt at a disadvantage or felt that society has made them have to deal with being a man or approach their masculinity. I had this strange new appreciation for the other boys on our side while each one talked about how they felt about society creating this model for men that they don't agree with or feel insecure about having to live up to. Because it was set up like a debate rather than a discussion, it made it seem like their needed to be a winner at the end, and made it so that each side of the room wasn't actually listening to what the other side had to say, and instead was just preparing a rebuttal or disregarding what they were saying altogether. It made it so that the job of the boys was just to either defend themselves rather then explain how they felt, since it was completely unanimous that women in history have been marginalized or have been at a disadvantage more. Also I totally agree with what Hannah had to say about finally reading a book by a women author, and I think it's actually really scary to think that as a class we will feel an over all refreshment from reading a book by a woman, since we should have already been reading books by women and should be use to a balance of authors of both genders by now. Also I love Pipers idea to have the girls argue for men and have the boys argue for women. It would have made it feel like we were working together more, and would allow for less frustration and fear of offending the other side.
ReplyDeleteWell said Matthew! I think a discussion (even heated) would have achieved greater results, and not confined the points a person could make-- although, i do understand why it was structured as a debate (and it was really fun, and allowed me to connect to my fellow ladies). I liked being able to argue for something i believed in, rather than a book and whether a certain character was a tragic hero or not (even though i know that's also important and all).
DeleteTruth be told the guys were defending something we all knew would never fall in their favor, and were thus made to make some points that were, well just offensive. I also think the time constraints made it difficult to form coherent points, and so we were forced to make an argument for something we hadn't completely gathered out thoughts and so it was choppy and didnt carry as much validity and conviction as we wanted it to.
Overall I found the debate refreshing. It felt great to have a discussion that was outside of the normal way we prepare to plunge into another book. I do agree with Piper who agreed with Hannah's statement that the males did have the underhand in this debate and it would have been interesting to mix up teams regardless of gender and see how that played out.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that moved me throughout the argument was the female oppression throughout history, whereas the men focused on male oppression in the modern day sense. As we all know, women received the right to vote in 1920 but until then (in many societies) the men did in fact have the upper hand. Only in recent history have women been viewed as more than a "domesticated housewife" or the males inferior. The males argument was made weaker because only recently have the males roles in society been "oppressed", if that makes sense. It was hard not to bomb on each other and the sensitivity was in the air!
I feel that this next unit will definitely challenge the views of the role of the women in American society. The arguments (at least those made in my class) made by the women broadened the overall view of women while the men were kind of forced to indulge in the "now". I am very excited to read some lady lit, which (I agree with Hannah on this) has been confined in the English curriculum.
I did not find the debate enjoyable on the whole. The part I did like was the conversation the women had on the roles of women throughout history and how views have dictated their oppression. There was definitely that feeling of camaraderie that others have already mentioned. As for the debate itself, I did not find it constructive. I had little to say except for exclamations of frustration. We deviated from the topic rather quickly. I think the prompt was partly at fault as it was not very conducive to a debate. It provided a side for you to support, but not one that you were against. The question was how has your sex been oppressed historically, not how was your sex so much way more oppressed than the other, which is horrible and completely to blame. The whole thing turned into a pointing of fingers that in my opinion was unnecessary. Both genders have been oppressed. Oppression for everyone. Huzzah. I think this question is completely and totally valid and it was great to explore it some, but perhaps a conversation would work better for this particular subject. I do think that we all agree that women have been oppressed so there is no need to try to disprove it. Instead we could talk about the roots of oppression in both sexes and how that has changed over time.
ReplyDeleteI am interested in what female authors of the late 19th and early 20th centuries have to say about society and males of the time. I hadn't even thought about the fact that there have been few to zero female authors in our curriculum throughout high school. I guess that supports what Hannah commented about being subjected to subconscious literary misogyny as it never even crossed my mind. All the things Gretta said.
todays debate was very interesting. even though most of the statements the boys made were invaild and made no sense at all. i got very heated. it seemed like the boys didnt care as much as the girls. at the end when ms. Petta asked how many people got emotional all the girls raised their hands and only about three guys did. this would be tons of fun to do again and like matthew said i was also talking about it with people after class and telling proplr about the debate we had. overall it was an interesting experience and i cant wait to have more
ReplyDeleteI think that the emotions were running high and some of the things that were said were not constructive. However, I think that the way it made everyone think about the topic at hand was very valuable. I don't think that the debate itself was the point as much as that a heated debate will make you think more than a calm one sided discussion.
ReplyDeleteI thought the debate was kind of pointless, especially because it's already generally accepted that historically, women are the ones who have been oppressed, and strong points in favor of the male argument were hard to find. The arguments of the opposing team didn't surprise me, because I expected them to be commonly used arguments or invalid arguments, and they were. Judging by this debate, I expect we'll be learning about male authors illustrating females as oppressors and female authors illustrating males as oppressors.
ReplyDelete-Darren
In the beginning, the role of men and women were equally split- men hunt, women nurture etc. etc. (it was fair). But as time evolved, it wasn't necessary for men to go out and hunt, defend their village but the the role of a women still needed to be done, children were still being born, and supper had to be made. And although men are just as capable of changing a diaper, washing clothes, cooking dinner the women had already been 'assigned' those roles. As things advanced- women remained in the same confines as that of the early job distributions, and sexism took shape. (okay maybe this is just a really simplified version of events with definite flaws). But still, now those chores became part of a women(were intertwined)- and even today it's hard to dissociate from such stereotypes.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to this upcoming Unit, i feel like it could generate many discussions (especially on topics not previously covered) and bring the class together as a whole.
I guess I'm not surprised with how the debate went. As soon as I heard the question I thought the guys already had their grave dug for them. We tried to make some kind of appeal that men have had problems too; though not as much as women. It still didn't work out beautifully. I'm not really surprised by the points that the girls made, everybody already knows about oppression women have suffered, so it was just a matter of restating generalizations we've already heard before for the first part of the argument. The guys had some slip-ups, and used some points that weren't exactly helpful to the argument, so we were just feeding ammo to the other side, basically. I think we made some good points about issues that men suffer too, but I don't think there was much hope for us to win, even if the women had made a worse argument. Someone judging the debate would probably dismiss half the arguments the guys made on the grounds that women have had worse. I think it's easy enough to predict that this unit will focus on gender roles and history, and how certain biases that people have towards their gender or the opposite gender can effect how characters turn out coming from male or female authors.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the debate. It allowed us a chance to interact, and voice our opinions. The fun thing about this class is that it's filled with such intelligent and opinionated kids, I do feel that some of the arguments were sloppy and could've been constructed more strategically if we had time to plan, but other than that it was something fun. Emotions were high during the debate (heat was rising from the right side of the room) but I think it was cool to see how this topic could spark such a drive in some of us.
ReplyDelete-I look forward to this upcoming unit, it gives me personally, as a writer, a chance to take a look into something very significant in writing: the depiction of both genders. I never really would have thought about had it not been for Ms.Petta, so it's very interesting.
I have mixed feelings about the debate. Normally I really like debating any issue, including oppression, but our discussion went someplace that I never like to go. I know that It can get hard to keep you head during a debate, especially one about such a touchy subject, but we got a to point where one half wasn't hearing what the other had to say at all. The girls, who out numbered the boys by quite a lot and had a bit of a historical advantage, were still much less put together that the guys were. Part of it is size. When you have fewer people to agree on what to say it makes debating a whole lot easier. The size and diversity of opinions in the girls' group made it hard for us to decide what to say even though we had a very diligent note taker. This made our presentation ungainly and full of people just shouting out the same ideas over and over again. I'm not saying we didn't make some good points, we just repeated them a lot without taking what the boys were saying into account. And they did have some important points about custody and they way men are perceived in todays society, even if they had some problems of their own presenting. Liam and I were talking afterward and we both agreed that making the teams co-ed would have made the debate more interesting and overall fair. I think that reversing the roles would also be a nice twist. We call came away with about the same knowledge as before, that women have been oppressed and continue to be oppressed around the world. The points the boys had to make got kind of lost in the shouts from my side of the room, which was unfortunate. There is a difference between oppression and sexism and I think that we need to clear up that before we have another 'battle of the sexes'
ReplyDeleteThe main argument that i disagreed with was that man can not succeed without women. This statement has a lack of meaning, because if you think about it, man actually set up government policies, and even in life in general. Women wouldn't be able to do many things without men, women can barely get along with each other.
ReplyDeleteAhmed---
i was suprised with some of the things said by the opposing side, and also with the way that some of the boys were speaking to us. The discussion in our class got heated quickly, and it was hard not to fight back right away when they said something we disagreed with.
ReplyDeleteI think that this next unit will be more interesting than usual because it is a topic that is still being fought over today. Hopefully these books will bring more intrest to me compared to the ones we have read before.
I am an agressive person therefore this debate got the better of me , i spoke out of turn when the boys said things that were , what i considered , irrelevant. However it was a great debate and i believe both sides made valid points.
ReplyDeleteThis activity was very..intense. although we could keep the air of insincerity about, things got heated. i think it was fun and we should have more, maybe ones that are not so likely to be EXTREMELY offensive
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ReplyDeleteI posted something valid and it was removed....
ReplyDeleteI'm beyond late but better late then never!
ReplyDeleteThis debate in my class was definitely heated as I'm sure the other classes was. I agreed with some things both sides had said. I do slightly agree that women do partially put themselves in the role that we are in. If you want to be independent and have that role, you should put yourself in a position to do so. You can't be with someone who you know will expect you to be in a typical role of a woman. But also I think it is ridiculous to say that a woman who dresses provocatively is asking for any sort of harassment. She is obviously looking for attention but it is NOT her fault if a man goes to far and it becomes against the law. Both sides mad valid points regardless of how offensive they may have been
This debate was certainly...heated. It was a very good example of how debates should NOT go. Both sides had very good arguments, but i also believe that separating the men to support the men, and the women to support the women was a BAD idea. having mixed gender teams would have made this debate seem much less defensive and violent. the arguments presented by both sides were solid (for the most part) and the discussion itself was good, but the fact that it seemed as if the two sides were fighting and criticizing each other was to much for a civilized debate.
ReplyDeleteThis debate although heated, was very necessary in my opinion. Women have been oppressed endlessly throughout time and although it was fun to take out our age old frustrations out on the boys, it was even more interesting to hear what boys felt like had oppressed them throughout history and modern times. It was very interesting how the guys proved some of our points just by the way they reacted to our arguments and spoke to us
ReplyDeleteI think the topic of the debate is an important one, but there are many things that were overlooked in the organization of it. Better moderation and a more defined argument would have better suited a classroom environment. I think the downfall of any debate is when everything becomes too emotional and less based on facts, which sort of happened here.
ReplyDeleteDon't let a bad debate spoil the bunch, try again in a more controlled environment!