Discuss readings of The Things They Carried
Please post your thoughts and comment on the following:
What story so far in The Things They Carried has affected you most? O'Brien has stated that his stories are meant to convey "a noble lie." What do you feel is his noble lie? In what way is "story truth" more real than "happening truth?"
So far, the story that has affected me the most was the story about the water buffalo and how Rat Kiley repeatedly shot it. The description of his need to inflict pain shook me quite a bit. Although its not particularly relatable, O'Brien's description made me almost feel it through his use of grief and pain.
ReplyDeleteThe chapter named "Ambush" was a story that really made me view the war in a different way. the manner with which O'Brien talked about his killing of the young VC boy makes any person with emotions truly feel how awful O'Brien felt. in the modern world death is something that is changewd so that it is viewed not as a horrible act but rather aas a game. many nine year old kids will play call of duty and joyfully bash the head in of a fellow player. Ambush really made me rethink how death is now so socially accepted.
ReplyDeleteThis story has affected me in a lot of different ways. Some of the passages, such as the story of the water buffalo or of the necklace of tongues are disturbing, but there are also passages that have a touch of humor. I don't know if Tim O'Brien meant this sentence to be funny but i liked the line on page 117 that read "In many ways he was like America itself, big and strong, full of good intentions, a roll of fat jiggling at his belly..."
ReplyDeleteI like the way that Tim O'Brien is able to capture the human level of war with the stories of specific people. I think it is very important not to generalize a war or boil it down to statistics. That takes the human level out of it.
I'm not sure why the author is choosing to highlight the fact that what he is saying isn't real, but maybe it is because he afraid of the truth and isn't able to speak of the truth in such a way. Sometimes the truth is even more dramatic and hard to understand than lies and by choosing a combination of truth and lies, maybe it is a way for the author to distance himself from the horrible truth that he experienced.
In the book I think I was most affected by On the Rainy River. Here are some of the reasons I think it hit me the hardest.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of the story it was sort of relatable. It was about crisis, and about trying to move away from that crisis but not being able to get away. This is a situation which we all can relate to. But then, when he was on the rainy river, I still felt like him, I still felt empathetic but now I couldn't understand his situation, but that's what made it all the more real. He didn't understand it either. On the river, it seemed a bit desolately magical and I couldn't think of a crisis I could relate that to. Neither could he.
so far the story that appeals to me the most is the story of when Jimmy Cross and Tim O'brien meet again and talk about Martha and the war. How in one moment it was so much pain to remember the war they turned to drinking gin to make themselves feel better. It's interesting how even sometime years after the things that happened in the war affected them so deeply.
ReplyDeleteThe story that has most appealled to me so far has been the a segment in Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong concering Mark Fossie's girlfriend, Mary Anne. I feel as though this is almost directly symbolic of the corruption of war. Mary Anne was a normal seventeen year old girl and within weeks she was hanging out with the Greenies and wearing a necklace of tongues. Of course, the baby buffalo story also affected me. I found a few parallels between the two: the baby buffalo was innocent and ended up being brutally killed; Mary Anne was innocent and ended up killing brutally. I don't necessarily think that Mary Anne was real, but I think she represents more than just her character in The Things They Carried. I feel like each story is meant to be symbolic of some greater truth in life, meaning what is true in the story can represent something true in real life, though not necessarily the same thing.
ReplyDeleteThe story that effected me the most was the story of Mary Anne. This story effected me because it shows how war can really affect the people who experience it. It changed Mary Anne in a way that she would never be able to snap back from. The war and the experinces of Vietnam made her lose her feelings in away. In a way she became numb to the war and the horriers of what was happening around her. She lost all of her feelings for Mark Fossie and she forgets the plans they had made together for after the war. She turns into something that none of the man had seem before. She became one with the land and the war, this made her transfermation real for me. I felt that this story shows how much war can really change any one to something totally different.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that "story truth," is the truth within a story, not the truth in real life. When I say story, I mean literature and fiction. Actually as time progresses stories of real life become altered and in a sense turn into a form of entertainment.
ReplyDeleteNoble truth is the truth that stands out the most. It is the most appealing story that we read or hear about.
I believe that the happening truth is what we actually see and experience. Beyond that, everything becomes altered and those alterations can be turned into noble truth depending on how much they stand out.
For some reason, the part of the book that has stuck in my mind the most is not one of the more disturbing or horrific stories. Its actually just a short description that lasts about half a page. During some time period they are marching through a dangerous field, and an old man is leading them across the field. He is an old Vietnemese guy; they called him a "papa-san."
ReplyDeleteJust the description of how close they became to this man and how dependent they were on him humanized that whole war. It made you realize how many people died, and how every person that died was connected to so many others. On both sides, everyone was killing and killing, and both sides were feeling the same loss.
I don't know why this scene meant so much to me. Just the description of the old man tearing up and crying when they left him, and the soldiers leaving him as many rations as they could.
Tim O'Brien's complex writing affects me greatly due to his many layers and gut wrentching stories that evoke many emotions from me as a reader. I feel like I am living what O'Brien is, which somewhat makes the writing, expiriences and stories more real to me.
ReplyDeleteThe story of the baby buffalo and the story about the women who turned savage are the stories that were most affective to me in getting across the intended messages.
I feel like the noble lie is sort of that O'Brien either didnt go through these expiriences himself, but actually is taking from other people he knew and using their stories in order to help themselves come to peace or to to make himself feel better for things he didnt do or messed up while doing.
I feel like the actual story or what really happened would not be as interesting or would not get accross the message that O'Brien wanted people to understand.
The story that affected me most I think was also the story about the water buffalo. It may just be that I am very sensitive to inflicting pain on animals, but it really made me think. How awful it must be in the war to be able to do something like this to such an innocent animal. This story got me all teary eyed and I could really feel it in my stomache the way O'Brien really wanted us too. I don't completley understand (and won't just from reading a few stories) how completley altered people's lives and views were because of a war.
ReplyDelete"Along the trail there were small blue flowers shaped like bells. The young man’s head was wrenched sideways, not quite facing the flowers, and even in the shade a single blade of sunlight sparkled…”
ReplyDeleteDirectly after Obrien killed a man, he cannot help but noticing the beauty of nature. A butterfly lands softly on the body’s cheek, as it lay in a field of flowers and serenity. What strike me most: that fact that the first time I read this excerpt the first day of school I thought nothing of the description given to nature; to the good admits the gory. After reading this chapter for a second time, the theme revisited me more vividly. It was clear that the true meaning was not the death of the person, but the tragedy of death itself. The gloom is made clearer by the fact that death can happen even in the lightest of places, where butterflies and flowers can’t mean a thing when it comes to the end of life. Death is not a tragedy; rather the tragedy is life. The fact that we are born to die.
Oh and story truth us way more truth than happening truth because it is more stable.
ReplyDeleteby the way i am sara dill
ReplyDeleteIt is difficult to chose one story that affected me the most, because of the way O'Brien writes, and the intensity of his subject matter. The story about the baby buffalo was obviously quite shocking. However, in retrospect, I can appreciate, if not agree with, the logic behind Rat Kiley's actions. I think that when you're in a battle zone, things happen to you emotionally and physically that civilians can't even begin to comprehend. Also, another incident, which was less of a story and more of a statement, which was when they talked about how they dealt with death in the sense of how they dealt with bodies of the Vietnamese. The way they called them crispy critters shocked me. However, in the smae vein of the buffalo story, I can understand how I can't understand at all what life was like in the bush, and how you had to be to deal with that. If that makes any sense.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with Ian. I truly felt it in my stomach when I read about the water buffalo. The way it describes this baby buffalo as falling, not making a sound as it struggles to pick itself up without knees. What got me the most what how it described the flicker of life left in its eyes at the end. I suppose after seeing and experiencing what those men saw, it makes sense that they would feel no sympathy for the animal. I haven't experienced anything like it so I feel immense sympathy for the animal, but then I think about what i would do if I had to peel my best friend off a tree and I completley understand
ReplyDeleteThe story that has had the greatest effect on me is "The Man I Killed." The image of the soldier with the star-shaped hole in his face has stayed with me throughout the book. O'Brien frequently refers back to this man in his other stories, showing he dwells on this memory as well. This man, and his death, could be complete fiction, but his story may be a "noble lie" in that it presents the power of humans to kill. This power is certainly real, and therefore a truth. It also shows us how the actions we view as necessary in warfare nevertheless have the ability to haunt those who committed them.
ReplyDeleteThe chapter that sticks out the most in my mind is "how to tell a war story". This story sticks out for me because it is so intense, and Tim O'Brien uses such short, concise sentences to say what he means, like each movement is a bullet that gets shot into the baby water buffalo.
ReplyDeleteThe story that affected me the most is certianly the GI singing "Lemon Tree" as he throws chunks of Curt Lemon down from the branches. It's quite sad, but a little sardonic as well.
ReplyDeleteThe Man I Killed touched me deeply. It made me think; it made me wonder. It made me feel like I was in a different part of myself, a place I've never experienced before and don't want to experience, but that I can feel happening. The way O'Brien wrote this story reminds me of the way I write when I'm writing for myself and no one else. He continued repeating these vivid details, like, "He lay with one leg bent beneath him, his jaw in his throat, his face neither expressive nor inexpressive. One eye was shut. The other was a star-shaped hole." He wrote as if it was just natural to say these things more than once, as if that was the way it was supposed to be. I felt that.
ReplyDeleteSo far, the story that affected me most was "Good Form". It wasn't so much that this story left a lasting image with me as the fact that it kept me thinking. I had to read the chapter more than once, and even after I put the book down, I continued to puzzle over the meaning of O'Brien's words in this chapter. The part that stayed with me most prominently is at the very end when his daughter asks if he has ever killed anyone. "I can say, honestly, 'Of course not.' Or I can say, honestly, 'Yes.'"
ReplyDeleteI feel Tim O'Brien's "noble lie" is the fact that, while his storie are fictional, the raw emotion that is portrayed within in them is completely trye to life. Also, he states that "story truth" is more real than "happening truth" because fictional stories are created with the purpose of having the reader understand the circumstances and be able to feel the emotions of the character. "Happening truth" isn't always cohesive and makes it much more difficult to portray all of the feelings taking place.
I wanted to respond to Meredith G and say that I think it's wonderful and intriguing that you remembered that small piece of the book. I think it is those moments that should be remembered, because although they don't take a lot of space on the pages, they hold immense weight within the whole.
ReplyDelete"Happening truth" is what we see, what we taste, what we hear, what we touch, and what we smell. "Story truth" is what we feel. The purpose of the "story truth" is to translate the "happening truth" into a different format. It doesn't make it any less true. Most of us think of lies as something negative; maybe we've got this version of what lies are that has been misconstrued. There's a constant blur of reality, but because we want answers, and we want to know what is "the right thing to do," we create a bad side and a good side. We feel more secure. Maybe we're not supposed to feel secure. The purpose of the noble lie is to ask, "Why?" about the truth, and to accept that there is no right answer.
The part of the story that affected me the most was the part about the water buffalo which represented the hatred and tension that occured on the war zone. Killing the water buffalo was in a way an alternative for real revenge. Tim O'brien called it a VC water buffalo meaning they saw distinction between themselves and the water buffalo. This part really struck me because it shows how war can affect someone totally innocent and someone who has absoulutley nothing to do with the war. I think it also shows how the soldiers were feeling during the war. They withered with fear the way a rose would in a storm and in their case the war was the storm and the slow dying of this little water buffalo shows how going to war made it seem like going through a very slow and painful death. The fear in the water buffalo's eyes was reflecting off of the soldiers eyes.I also want to mention how rat kiley kills the water buffalo with such clamness.(This is just my own mind spaeking by the way.) What also affected me was how the soldiers are in such denial as to pretend that nothing has happened and sing as one of their peers just died. They had to pretend, they had to ignore. This has little to do with the plot but I thought I should say how hard it must of been fighting this war, i mean, how could they tell from a VC and from non communist vietnamese to find a difference isnt simple if you were coming from half away around the world. ( perviously takio2010)
ReplyDeleteThe story that probably affected me the most was the one about the baby water buffalo. I mean, I can't even imagine what it would be like to lose my best friend, but the idea of purposely putting anything through that kind of pain, especially when it can't defend itself, makes me sick to my stomach. The way O'Brien bluntly states what happened, it's like you can feel each blow that hit the buffalo. O'Brien's writing makes everything seem so real, like you're there observing everything that's happening. It's like O'Brien said in his speech, you don't just feel it in your heart and your mind, you can feel it in your veins, your gut, your entire being.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to try to remember what I wrote because my post got deleted...
ReplyDeleteThe thing that fascinates me the most about O'Brien's book is the way that he writes it. His words have such character and his flow is very unique. I love the way that he switches narratives so much without making his story seem choppy, or disorganized. Something I really admire is the way that, in the beginning, all the characters seemed like, well, just that. Characters. People of fiction, imaginary figures that live purely in O'Brien's imagination. This is totally possible; however, after O'Brien really gets into the tale, it seems like they are much more than that. They become almost real, and you feel like you are reading a real story about real people who did exist at that time. Part of me believes that they may have, but in a different from of "existence." I believe that, perhaps, they existed (and still exist) in O'Brien. They may have really existed in the men that he knew during the war, too, but I get the impression each of them share a trait that O'Brien possesses or possessed. Throughout the whole book, I kept getting that feeling that was how it was.
Um.
There are two moments of this book that have really stuck with me since reading them. The first is the chapter where O'Brien recalls the time when "he" murdered the young Vietnamese man. The second is the chapter where Norman Bowker is driving around his town remembering the night when he lost Kiowa. They are both such strong, vivid moments of the book, and really struck me hard. The scene where O'Brien is elaborating on the Vietnamese man’s life is, perhaps, my favorite part in the book. That section is so clear and intricate, and I feel as if I’m reading a biography written by someone who was frantic at the time, and scared to forget that young man’s life. The amazing imagery that O’Brien uses also keeps the reader fascinated and totally wrapped up in the story. The morbid pictures that my mind created whilst reading this have still stuck with me, and that is what makes this chapter so memorable to me. “Speaking of Courage” is also very memorable because of the narrative and imagery. It’s so easy to picture Norman driving laps around the lake, to see his father sitting at home watching baseball, his ex-girlfriend mowing the lawn. Everything is a familiar language, and makes imagining the things O’Brien is describing effortless. The chapter “Notes” reinforces my fondness for “Speaking of Courage.” The shockers and stories behind it really add onto the whole plot of the book.
I feel like his “story-truth” has, in a way, mixed with his “happening-truth” in a way that you can tell the difference, but only after a lot of analyzing and looking into the deeper meanings of O’Brien’s tales. It seems like his “story-truth” version of ‘his’ time in Vietnam seems more…personal, dare I say, than if he wrote it in an autobiographical formant. It seems more real, because the author makes everything seem so much more human. Though the aspect of how shockingly real and frightening Vietnam was, O’Brien enables the reader to be able to really put themselves in each character’s shoes, see what they’re seeing, and feel what they’re feeling. Though it may be made up, something that happened to one of these characters seems more real to the reader because they feel more able to picture it, and feel like they are there witnessing it.
Ow. Sorry if this comment is obnoxiously long.
Emily Onyan
The passage "Speaking of Courage" has affected me the most. Tim O'Brien leaves the audience in a state of shock with Kiowa's death, and the format in which it is presented. Then he switches his format and describes the death of Norman Bowker, and how it relates to the death of Kiowa. The audience can never be sure what is meant by the statement "Norman did not experience a failure of nerve that night. He did not freeze up or lose the Silver Star for valor. That part of the story is my own." The reader wintesses Kiowa's death from the perspective of Norman Bowker, and then Norman Bowker's death from the perspective of the real-life Tim O'Brien. O'Brien implies that Bowker killed himself so many years later because of the pressures bestowed upon him when he watched (and contributed to, in his own mind) Kiowa's death. However, O'Brien says "That part of the story is my own," whilst discussing it. Is Bowker even real, or is he representitive of a part of Tim O'Brien that died with Kiowa? Or did Bowker actually contribute to Kiowa's death, despite O'Brien suggesting that it was not the fault of Bowker? Did Bowker actually commit suicide, and for that reason, because of it all?
ReplyDeleteThe ambiguity of the passage "Speaking of Courage" and the subsequent passage "Notes" left me in a state of shock and confusion. O'Brien's approach to death in each of them affected me the most.
Oops. That's David Markakis, by the way.
ReplyDeleteEmily Onyan:
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that in both of the passages that I mentioned, O'Brien uses a repetitive sort of narration. Not the anaphora kind of repetition, but just repetition in general. He repeats over and over the gory images of the dead Vietnamese man. He repeats things about Kiowa disappearing under the waters in another chapter. It seems to tie things together really well.
I really did this post earlier, but then I looked back and I noticed that I didn't really answer the question, haha. Okay, so the story that affected me the most was the one where Tim O'Brien talks about Norman Bowker and how he can't quite talk about what happened in Veitnam. The most effective thing that O'Brien does in this short story is use repition. Yes, there are traces of anaphora in this section, but there is mostly repition. The thing about O'Brien's writing is that he constantly repeats certain situations throughout the story, building on them more and more each time. It really grabs the reader's attention because not only are the intriuged by the plot in itself, but they are anxious to find out what really happened. They wait on the rest of the story...
ReplyDeleteNautica Lawrence
ReplyDeleteThe most memorable moment in the book is how they picked a guy that went into the mine and the soldiers reaction to the danger. i think the noble lie is that the story is fictional based on real events so its noble in that it isnt completely fictional. i think the morals in the story make it more real than the happening truth.